Jack O'Brien:
I've been in the waiting room for hours.

Ben Lynch: Ah, nonsense.

Jack O'Brien: Mate, I put a message in Slack and then deleted it because I assume you haven't seen it.

Ben Lynch: You didn't send us a message last week when you weren't here.

Jack O'Brien: You missed the suit. Well, I saw the suit, yes.

Ben Lynch: Jack O'Brien's not here and all dressed up and nowhere to go. Back in the usual garb. Today? You've gone for the puffer jacket. It's a real downgrade from a blazer.

Jack O'Brien: No, I just figured uniform reflects the significance of this podcast.

Ben Lynch: He's had a week off and the standards have already dropped. G'day, good people. Welcome to the Grow Your Clinic Podcast by Clinic Mastery. Here's what's coming up inside of this episode. Let's talk about losing your favourite team members.

Jack O'Brien: Think of your pathways like the display homes. Can we customise it for my block of land?

Ben Lynch: As the clinic owner, different things matter to you. Same is true of your team.

Hannah Dunn: In our clinic, we have pathways where People's roles are already changing before we're looking at what others might consider to be a career progression.

Ben Lynch: Just send an email to ben at clinkmastery.com and we'll hook you up. Can you say that slower please Ben?

Ben Lynch: What? You're asking me to speak slower? A-E-N.

Jack O'Brien: This is private practice, it's a meritocracy baby and you've got to make it work and you get out what you put in.

Ben Lynch: This episode will be right up your alley if you're looking to retain your top team members. We're diving into the art of designing career pathways. Plus stick around for when Jack drops a gem on how a display home package unlocked a simple yet impactful place for defining your career pathways. Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by AliClinics.com. If you're the kind of clinic owner who loves to feel organised and stay ahead of the chaos, you'll love Ali. Think of it as your digital clone. It's the single source of truth for all your clinics, policies, systems, and training. Test it for free at AliClinics.com. And In other news, applications are now open to work with us one-on-one at Clinic Mastery. If you want support to grow your clinic and bring your vision to life, just email helloatclinicmastery.com with the subject line podcast and we'll line up a time to chat. All right, let's get into the episode. We might as well crack into it. This is episode 305. This is coffee number three for me today. What's your count, J-O-B? Yep, coffee number four today. Four? You're flying, Hannah. I don't drink coffee, mate. How did this not come up in the screening for getting on the pod?

Jack O'Brien: Hannah will be unavailable for future episodes.

Ben Lynch: That's a sore topic. Anyway, if you're new to the podcast, welcome. Did you know that over a thousand clinic owners just like you tune into the show for the latest news, big ideas, maybe occasionally some coffee tips. Maybe some parenting tips. I don't know. Not from me, at least. My name is Ben Litch. I'll try to extract as much gold as I possibly can from my more talented co-hosts, especially today, because we're talking about how you retain your best team members by giving them a career pathway.

Jack O'Brien: Ben, I noticed over your shoulder, for those watching along, you can, if you're listening, you can watch this on YouTube, but over your shoulder there, other shoulder, turn the other way. There's a little gap in your imperfects row there. Oh, yeah. Yes. Yes. And so listeners, we, a couple of weeks, a couple of episodes ago, we mentioned that if you leave us a review or a rating on Spotify or Apple podcasts or YouTube, we will send you a box of vulnerability cards. Anyway, we get this email from Gabriella. She says, hi, just gave you a podcast five stars on Spotify. not just for the free cards, but also because I'm loving the podcast. That said, she said, that said, I'd love a pack of the cards. So Gabriela, thank you. We appreciate your review. For those playing along, jump onto Spotify. If you're listening now, do it as you watch or as you listen, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, you can see over Ben's shoulder, there is two, four, five, there's 11 remaining. So get cracking on the reviews, ladies and gentlemen.

Ben Lynch: Thank you, as always, JB, as you mentioned, for sharing their reviews. Gabrielle also doubled down and gave us a Google review because one review is not enough. Thank you so much. Super appreciate it. Let's tee this up. Let's talk about losing your favourite team members. We're going to go straight to the heart of it. I want to set the scene.

null: Yes.

Ben Lynch: If you've ever experienced this, you will remember the sinking feeling in your stomach. You get a ding ding on the phone and the SMS comes through. It's from one of your favourite team members and it says, hey, can we arrange a time to chat? And all of a sudden you're like, oh, Freddie, what is this? It's a resignation. I've been blindsided. How didn't I see this? What's going to happen? I'm going to have to recruit. All of a sudden you're on the back foot and this is not a good position to be in. So today we're going to talk about how you can have more proactive conversations about career progressions and pathways so that your team can grow with you and stay with you. To kick us off, let's go straight to some examples. This is kind of like the NCIS version. My dad used to love NCIS, where they start with the end scene and then they go back to the start and then work their way there. So let's give this a go. I'm going to share my screen so people can see. JAB, kick us off with a couple of the key pathways. that you've seen, let's talk to the ones on screen now, and any other ones that you've seen deployed in clinics to retain their best team, and then we'll come to you, Hannah, to layer into it. J.O.B.?

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, so what we're looking at is a slide with seven different positive pathway options. I think the high income earner is a great one that often comes up, as well as the further education or clinical excellence. And then there's a couple, there's a few in there that I typically would say bundled together, the travel, family, maybe the side hustle and call that like a lifestyle pathway. So yeah, they'd be the three that I would typically say, income, clinical excellence, lifestyle.

Ben Lynch: Hannah, what else would you add to this or have you seen added to this sort of suite of pathways for team members?

Hannah Dunn: Yeah, I think these pathways cover them all really with different elements in each of them. Like thinking about leadership mentoring, I don't think that's just a linear line. I think there can be offshoots in that, that I think we spoke about last time around different leadership opportunities within the organisation. And I think those side hustles as well can be internal, like that someone might have a desire or a passion that doesn't have to be external to the business, that can be internal to what you're doing and maybe a service that you're adding on because they're going to drive it for you.

Ben Lynch: Well, let's double click or triple click even on leadership mentoring. You said there's a couple of different streams or options there. Yeah. Talk us through some of the things that you've done or seen done.

Hannah Dunn: Yeah, I think this comes right back to desire statements, which is something I learned through Clinic Mastery, like really getting clear on those goals, which I'm sure we'll talk about. But I think that is what has shaped our leadership pathways the most or our progression pathways the most. hearing what team members want and then being able to link into those and create positions that align with what we want to do. I think when it's done poorly is when you hear what someone wants to do and you think that doesn't really align with what I want to do, but I want to keep them so let's do it anyway. It's really easy to feel like that sometimes, but being able to say no to the ones that don't align with you and being able to say yes to the ones that do. So an example of that that comes to mind is we had a team member who really wanted us to do retreats. It was something that I was like, yes, we should do retreats and it's on my radar, but I just don't know how to do them essentially. And the three of us spoke to how we now do retreats on an episode a couple of weeks ago or two weeks ago. but this team member really wanted to do the retreats and I was like okay you are like let's do it let's just jump in and so she really took the lead even though I was still making like the financial decisions and things and she was quite a young team member but just to have someone whose full energy is there really helped us be able to develop that into what is now a coordinator role in being able to shape that.

Ben Lynch: Nice, J.B., Anna raises a good point around, you wanna retain the team member, but we've so often seen clinic owners create a rod for their own back and make a really unprofitable decision in the longterm, put themselves in an awkward spot financially, operationally, by creating this role out of thin air to retain someone, and they haven't really thought through the second and third order consequences. So when it comes to actually balancing I want to provide something personalised to this team member and balancing the business case for it. How should clinic owners go about thinking and designing pathways that are sustainable?

Jack O'Brien: Clinic owners need to think about pathways as templates that can then be adjusted as long as there's a win-win or a great way to think about it is think of your pathways like the display homes. And then a young family comes through to the display home and says, I like the look and feel of that display home. Can we customise it for my block of land? This was inspired by a conversation I had with an architect who works at a display home company. And I think it's a great analogy because our pathways, you might have three or four display home type pathways at your clinic. And you can customise bits and pieces and facades for each individual team member. And you should, because this isn't about having cookie cutter pathways, but we can't completely re-engineer a different brand of display home, if that makes sense. And so you might have, I think of it often like riverbanks. And so a river can take different forms, but the riverbanks give it direction and give it perimeter, if that makes sense. So maybe that's a way to think about it, Ben. Does the display home analogy resonate for you? You're coming in hot with the metaphors, the analogies here.

Ben Lynch: This is fantastic.

Jack O'Brien: I'm thinking about this.

Ben Lynch: This is prepared. Look, I haven't had the display home analogy before, but I think it's a great one.

Hannah Dunn: I like it. Yeah.

Jack O'Brien: Good. Because what I see with clinic owners, right, is they go, my team members don't fit my pathways. It's like, well, your pathways are too rigid or it goes the other way. And they say, oh, I've got this team member who wants to do X, Y, Z. Should I create a role for them? And like you mentioned, you end up creating not a role, but a rod for your own back. And so it's not absence of pathways, nor is it rigidity of pathways. It's a display home model of pathways.

Hannah Dunn: And it was said to me that you've got to think about the pathway if that person left, if that was still something that you would want to continue down the path of, because you don't want to get six months down a pathway and have that person leave and then need to fill that spot or completely abandon something you've put a lot of work into.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, spot on. I think also there's a key principle, and this is probably inspired by or borrowed from David Dugan, been one of our mentors at one time, and as clinic owners, we need to have a vision for the career of our team that is greater than they have for themselves. And so oftentimes clinicians, therapists, struggle to have a big vision for their career. We need to be two, three, five years ahead of their vision for themselves so that we can begin with the end in mind, or as Daniel Gibbs often says, start with the last post first. and reverse engineer tactically, strategically, to make sure we're heading in the right direction. And sometimes we've got to direct that ship, Hannah, to your point on desire statements. The first couple of times you do a desire statement with a practitioner, they got no idea what to say. And so we have to really facilitate and riverbank the conversation, right?

Ben Lynch: Well, let's go into that, the desire statement side of things. Let's expand and explain it a little bit more, Jack. You've done some work recently using some great AI tools to help people write really impactful, compelling visions for the future. But describe what it is and how to get the best possible outcome.

Jack O'Brien: Yes, we created a custom GPT trained on Eclipse Mastery way and method for our clients at the retreat only a week or two ago. And subsequently, they could use it for their practitioners, team members as well. It's super powerful for our members only, but stay tuned on that. Essentially, a desire statement is a written document that helps you articulate what you want your life to look like. in the future. And that timeline is typically in the three to five year window across six to eight different domains of your life. What do you want your life to look like? And we express it in a desire that is in the future present tense. So as a brief example, perhaps that's in around health and finance. And my desire statement might say, I am, I have completed a half Ironman triathlon and I am able to, uh, to hit a power target on my bike and I weigh X kilos and I invest in my health by getting a massage once a fortnight and a float tank once a fortnight. That's my desire statement. That's not my current reality, but that's the future reality I want. And we express that across, you know, multiple different domains of life.

Hannah Dunn: And we tend to look at sort of three to five year timeframes.

Jack O'Brien: That's right, because it's far enough that we can get imaginative, but not too far away that it's too abstract.

Hannah Dunn: Yes.

Ben Lynch: Yeah. That's a really good point. And so Hannah, let's talk about the career element of the desire statement. When you've had experience helping therapists, team members write the career part, what have you found really useful or great examples of the things that they include when writing that desire statement?

Hannah Dunn: Yeah, I think one thing just to touch on before the careers part is just that people or directors will say to us, but my team don't want to talk about their personal life or what's happening there. And it's really important to say to them, like, we recognise you as a whole person. You're not just your job. We're just one element of that. And we want to be able to support you to achieve X, Y, and Z, whatever it is, whether that's linking it back to finance to say that this is where the finance comes or I'm sure, Jack, you've got lots of examples of how to link that for clinicians and directors.

Ben Lynch: A reasonable parallel is the fact that when a patient comes in, we're trying to understand their problem in the context of their life so that we can design meaningful goals and milestones for their progression. The same is true in this context. We're trying to understand more about the person that's on the team beyond just the four walls of the clinic. So that's what we're trying to do. And you can use that as a reference point. And I always say to people, especially in their first time, feel welcome to share as much or as little as you like. The more specific we are, the more practical I can be in supporting you to make progress. So let's start. And it normally takes a few iterations for us to progress. So I think that's a really meaningful way for us to begin. And If they know what good or great looks like, here's an example, then they can actually work towards that. Otherwise, it becomes like a singular sentence. To your point, Jack, it's like, I'm fit and healthy, you know, rather than some of those other details. So, Hannah, let's go back to the career section side of things. We're looking at, oh, there we go. Thumbs up, Jobin. He's got the emojis on. I like that. We're talking about the career section and what are the elements inside of that desire statement that you find represent a good version of it?

Hannah Dunn: Yes. I think just really encouraging people to think about where they really want to be in that three to five years and to not put any limitations on it. Like, and we say, you know, let's think about where you've seen other people. Is there roles that you want? And people will start off, as you said, like, oh, I want to be supervising two or three team members. And you're like, okay, well, what does that role look like? What sort of portion of your role is clinical versus what's not? Is there a particular area you want to focus in on? For some of our team, it's been that, you know, I want 100% physical clients, or I want to work with the under twos, or I really like having a general caseload, but I'm more interested in focusing on the PD element and being able to support the team in PD. And so just nutting out those ideas, sometimes it's about location, sometimes it's around I really want to relocate back home to Sydney where my family is, we're Melbourne based, so sometimes it actually gives you really good insight into preparing for those exits that you might not have seen otherwise coming if you haven't had these conversations.

Ben Lynch: Great point. That's exactly where we started the whole can we chat conversation coming out of the blue? It may still do. This is not a silver bullet. But ideally, we're having these proactive conversations about, you know, where do you see yourself? Where do you want to go? The other part to that, Hannah, is some people feel like they're trapped in, like it's in concrete. I'm going to set this, you know, future direction. I don't want to be too specific because I feel locked in. Well, that's a starting point. And if we're referencing them regularly, say every three months, and updating them, then there are living documents, there are living evolution of where you're going. So what I heard there is you're looking at their caseload, the mix of clients perhaps by demographics or funding sources or problems that they come into the clinic for. You're looking at their week as well, like explain your hours and how they're divided up. And we're looking as part of that sort of non-clinical roles as well, and specifically what you would be doing in that time. I think CPD is another good one, like what areas do you want to build competency in or new capabilities to add? is also good. Jay, are there any other parts to the clinical or career side that you would add to this to make sure that clinic owners and then by extension practitioners especially feel like they've got a compelling future that's designed for their career?

Jack O'Brien: Yeah. Clinicians in particular need practice with the specificity to your point. They often lead with, I want to be fulfilled in my role as a therapist. Like that's a great place to start and that's okay, but we're going to get more practical. So to answer your question, I think specifically clinicians and therapists can get really granular with how they want to be better clinically. So I'd like to be. a confident or seen as an expert in X presentation or Y therapy, or I want to complete this level of study or certification. I want to be able to mentor young students or young therapists in X. So get really granular around the types of presentations and the types of therapies that they're interested in. If they're motivated clinically, then let's get specific clinically. And therefore we as clinic directors and owners can mentor and lead towards that.

Ben Lynch: It's a really good point around being able to make the progression over time. So one of the key challenges I'm going to put to you is Should a therapist start their career progression on more than half a day a week or less? So should the first change in their career from clinical be more or less than half a day a week? There's a case for both sides, Ben.

Jack O'Brien: You're asking us to bet long and hard.

Ben Lynch: Sounds sore sitting on the fence.

Jack O'Brien: Okay. Uh, I'll you go first, Hannah, you go first.

Hannah Dunn: Uh, I would say that in our clinic from experience, we have pathways where. People's roles are already changing before we're looking at what others might consider to be a career progression. So we already build that in, I think in regards to, in your first year, you have a general caseload in your second year, you can have up to 20% that specialise in an area. So we already have that a little bit built in and then there's opportunities to do up to an hour of project work when you feel you're ready to do that and that's guided by the individual. So there are some opportunities in which they can self-elect and do and then it's not until they're already doing that hour of project work and already seeing about 20% of their caseload in their own area that we really start to look at what we would consider that career progression into an individualised area. So we're already sort of building that in a little bit. And so then for us, it would be maybe like a couple of hours a week that we'd be looking at, but probably not half a day to start with.

Ben Lynch: So even less than half a day to start with. Okay, really interesting. Jack, I'm going to come to you in a moment to get your response. But Hannah, on the project piece, do you determine what projects they work on in their pathways or portfolios, or is it determined by the individual?

Hannah Dunn: It used to be really determined by the individual, and we found that there were some projects that probably weren't as aligned. It's now about them bringing something to us that they feel is an opportunity that we could be doing something about that they have noticed, or they might ask to join a project that someone else is already working on that could do with some support. So I definitely want it to be an area of interest for them, but it also needs to align with the clinic values.

Ben Lynch: So they typically present to you, here's some things that I'd like to work on, and then they're essentially seeking your approval to do so. Do you provide them with maybe a suite of here are some potential projects that we want to do this quarter or this year, and you can find the one that interests you the most? Have you done that method?

Hannah Dunn: We have done that. Yes, we have done that too. And what we find at the moment is that people are generally coming to us and saying, I'm ready to take on a bit more project work. Is there something that is available or this was something I'm thinking about? We did used to have a list and we just found that people were working more finding things themselves. And so it became a bit outdated very quickly. So they're taking it to their mentor and then their mentor is bringing it to a team leader meeting.

Ben Lynch: Okay, nice. Jack, back to the half day more or less as a starting point for a progression for someone. Where do you sit?

Jack O'Brien: If I had to bet one way or the other, I'd say therapists should progress their career or adjust their role less than half a day a week. Now the case for the other way, if you were to transition more than half a day a week of their role, I get it in one sense because it helps them get the reps in and allocate a larger chunk of time for deliberate practice and execution. However, by and large, I see that go wrong because The clinic loses the commerciality of that therapist seeing patients. Such a key part of a therapist role is delivering exceptional client experiences for their patients. And if we take more than 10% of their clinical capacity away, which is half a day a week, 10%, if we take away 10%, Sometimes for many practitioners, they're unable to make their break even point. They're unable to be profitable. And typically Ben, most practitioners have half a day a week already available somewhere in their week. No one is a hundred percent utilised. And so there's always time somewhere, but we need to keep our eyes fixed on the commercial sustainability of our clinicians. roles. We can't all do non-client facing things for large chunks of our week, otherwise we won't see any clients or we won't face any clients.

Ben Lynch: Really great point on the calculation side, the sustainability side. Let's go a little bit further. You are the lover of data, of all things spreadsheets. So how do you help a clinic kind of determine what is sustainable for the career pathways and progressions of their team?

Jack O'Brien: There's a number of different ways to think about sustainability and pathways beginning with that framework of let's talk about your week. Let's assume you have full time and you 38 hours and you're, you know, let's say two thirds utilised. So you might be seeing patients for, you know, 24, 25, 26 hours out of your week. That's typically about 66%. And so let's talk about the other 12 hours of your week. What's involved in that? And perhaps we can maximise that. So we don't need to reduce any of your clinical capacity. What we can do is better utilise and capitalise on your existing nonclinical capacity. Now those numbers I use are probably more specific to OT, speech, psych land. In a more musculoskeletal context, a typical high performing clinician might be in the realms of 85% utilised. And so there's still 15% of their week that is perhaps white space in the diary or a bit gappy. Again, that is four to six hours a week. that they have available that they're not seeing patients. So how can we best maximise that time in the first instance? And having this type of conversation with a therapist helps them to realise that they don't need to reduce their clinical capacity. They've actually already got capacity in their week where they can be more effective and efficient.

Hannah Dunn: And, you know, on that, Jahak, one of the errors that we see people doing is saying, I've got this clinician who's not performing from a KPI or client perspective. So I've moved them into a leadership role. I've moved them into these projects. And it's just one of those things that we think, go Jack.

Jack O'Brien: I'm agreeing with you. If anyone can see me, if you're watching on YouTube, it's an exasperation emoji. So we must, we must Exemplify high clinical performance. These are the types that get the, I guess promotion is not quite the right word, but get the pathways. And when you unlock or achieve a pathway, the expectations don't reduce, they actually lift for your clinical performance and output. You need to get better clinically, certainly not go backwards.

Ben Lynch: It's a really great point around actually part of the sustainability is first meeting some criteria initially. Obviously, we often hear clinic owners that come to us and this is one of the main reasons that clinic owners choose to work with us is to find pathways to retain quality team members. And maybe they've tried it before, it hasn't quite worked out or they want to do it and they're not quite sure. And there's so much more to it than just here's a couple of hours a week and go for it in these sort of domains or projects and pick your own path. They actually want to set something up that's really sustainable and impactful for the clinic. So I like that, Joby, really practically, you're starting with auditing the current week and looking at how much of it is already utilised and not utilised. in clinical care and then finding opportunities for us to use the non-utilised clinical time to start to test. I think that's the other thing. They may say they want to do supervision or mentoring or retreats. They do it for a month or three months and they realise they don't like it. So there needs to be a degree of flexibility in the initial version. That's why not betting the farm and saying, all right, we're going to shift two days of your week to this new pathway and you take them off seeing clients, and all of a sudden it's unsustainable for everyone. So starting small, I think, is the principle here of a couple of hours a week that are already underutilised from a clinical care perspective, which is the typical narrative for most folks, and then being able to give them some very clear scope of work or projects that they could work on to, you know, cut their teeth, prove they can do it, also prove that they like doing it as well. Plenty of people have come back to us and said, no, not really for me. And then they change tack. That's perfectly okay as well. And even in the pre-framing of it to those practitioners, being able to speak to that really helps you in three months, six months, nine months, have the conversation if it's not really working out, is to just be able to say, if it's all right, you're going to learn, I'm going to learn whether this is right for you. Hannah, what have you found on the project side of things to be really helpful in making sure you're moving the needle. We sort of addressed it a little bit before, but we're not just adding more work and creating more documents that, you know, collect digital dust in the background. How do you make sure the project work that is done leads to meaningful change in the clinic?

Hannah Dunn: Yes, so having KPIs attached to them. So for our bigger projects and for our coordinators, we have that every, the 15th of every month, they do a post on our coordinators channel to give us a two minute update of where they're at, what they've worked on. Their mentors are also checking in on that progress and We've got, they've all got their own Slack channels too where they're giving us updates or asking questions about what they're working on and we can see the time that is booked out in their calendar. I think one thing that in the earlier times that we sort of found didn't work as well that now works better is making sure that time is blocked out in their calendars. And it's flexible, it can move if a client needs that time, but it gets rebooked in somewhere else. Otherwise we're finding that that project work gets eaten up really quickly with indirect time or client work or something else if it's not prioritised. And we've had position descriptions written up for those bigger roles and we have also given them like a 120-day plan almost, but a way to write out what their key projects are that they're working on, what the progress is, and what support they need. So we can just check that when we want to, rather than having to rely on them to bring it to us.

Ben Lynch: There's some good feedback loop mechanisms there, some open communication channels, and anchoring back to outcomes is super important. Do you want to see a practitioner prove themselves or invest in themselves by doing courses, reading books, attending seminars and conferences in their specific domain that they want to progress in before they start progressing?

Hannah Dunn: I do. Well, yeah, I'd love that. But have I seen that? Maybe not as much as I could implement.

Jack O'Brien: Better question, or not better, a different question. Sorry, Ben, I shouldn't cast judgment on your questions. See you guys, I'm going. Hannah, did you invest in yourself before you were paid to do so?

Hannah Dunn: Did I invest in my, yeah, I think I did invest in myself before I did. Yeah, absolutely. I also, yeah, absolutely I did. I just, yeah. You're a doer.

Ben Lynch: You're a doer. You're a, you're a, you know, it says it in the last name, you get things done, but anyway.

Jack O'Brien: That's the point. That's the point, right? Is that, yes, we're in a, maybe a culture of look, I'm not here to comment culturally. We would like people to invest in themselves and courses and books beforehand, whether they do or don't is for a different social commentary podcast. But I think the point is we want to create environments and cultures in our team where you'd be crazy not to, you know, why are you sitting back and waiting for me to pay for it as your clinic owner, as your director, like if you want to learn and grow and develop yourself, like as part of our culture, like buy the book, do the course. And what's the chances as a result of that, give us gain mentality that your clinic owner is going to come back and say, Hey, I know you went to that course. I know you bought that book. Let me contribute because it's added so much. to our clinic. So we want to create an, a culture and environment where it's not entitlement, and you're not just going to sit back and wait until you paid for every minute of self-development, but you're going to pursue self-development regardless of the remuneration, because that's who we are and that's what we do.

Ben Lynch: comes back to setting the standards and pre-framing things. On the previous episode, which you didn't bother to show up for, Jack, Hannah and I were discussing things about recruitment and starting at the recruitment process, pre-framing. Hey, we're a culture of change here. I'm butchering what Marcio says and we'll get him on the pod and he can fix how he frames it. But anyway, it's something along the lines of, hey, We move fast and we adapt. We're constantly using new technology, understanding frontier methods. That means we're a culture of change, just to let you know that's what you'll be joining. When the conversation comes up in 3, 6, 9, 12 months, we've got a place to go back to. So I agree with you, J.O.B., in that, you know, you interviewed Kim Scott on the podcast about radical candour since evolved to compassionate candour, right? In that sense, we were so often so caring, so empathetic, you know, we lower our standards. And so, coming back to that, absolutely, wouldn't you want someone on your team to say, on the weekend I did this course, or I've been reading this book, I've been following this YouTube channel, whatever it is, to level up themselves. and be able to kind of almost force their way into that career progression. Your point, Hannah, like, that's the idea. Well, the most people are like, oh, that would be great. But to your point, Jack, to channel your, you know, D, the directness here of Why not pre-frame that? Why are we not having these conversations now or earlier in the team member's journey? That these are the standards that we would expect of people who progress here. There's this great quote, sorry, I'll let you talk in a moment, but from Seth Godin, we love Seth Godin, right? I'm putting to his book, The Practice here. He has this saying, which is like, do people like us do things like this? And it's like, Do people who progress invest in themselves and do these things that are out of the ordinary? I would just say to those clinic owners that are battling feeling like they're somewhat held hostage to their business, that you can start to change your standards today as to what you expect.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah. I'll jump in what you get, what you mentor for. And so a great example of that in our clinic, at the start of every mentoring session or prior to every mentoring session, there's a version of a form. Sometimes that's a Google form or a Slack thread, or we use Ali these days for mentoring in clinics and a version of that form, you get what you mentor for. And so on hours at our clinic, we would always be asking, what have you read, watched or listened to recently? What course have you done or have registered yourself for? And so when you're asking these questions regularly, it's either going to get it. It's either going to get really uncomfortable and people might self-select because it's not the right culture for them. That's fine. Or, you know, you get those types of results of people who are proactive. They're watching, they're listening, they're reading, they're investing, they're growth minded. You get what you mentor for.

Hannah Dunn: And I do think as people progress through leadership, like if I think about my leadership team, they're definitely the ones who are going out and doing those sort of things on their weekends or, you know, self-directed learning. I think it's those younger career professionals initially that I'm thinking about when they're first going into those roles that definitely need that support around shaping. Because I think they're taught so much about focus on your clinical skills and they're not taught to sort of go broader with those leadership skills or whatever it is. And so, yeah, I think there's an opportunity to shape there too.

Jack O'Brien: That's a good point, Hannah. I think it's okay if that's how they come out of uni. You know, we don't have a whole lot of, we have zero control and a little bit of influence over the uni structures. And so begin with grace, of course, but we really want to quickly get to a place where those expectations and standards are lifted. And this is different to hospital land or public health land. Private practice, it's a meritocracy, baby, and you're going to make it work and you get out what you put in.

Ben Lynch: Yeah. So then how do you handle the conversation with a team member that says, I want to progress, I want this pathway, but they're not quite performing where they need to be?

Jack O'Brien: Well, I'll go first briefly, Hannah. When they're not performing, but they want to progress, the way we need to approach that conversation is equal and shared responsibility for an agreed outcome. And so we can say, right, well, here's what we can do as the clinic to, you know, open up some opportunities and pathways. But here's what you need to do, and here's what we need to see, and here's what would be a job well done. Here's what success looks like so that we can have the next conversation. These things are always ongoing conversations, but what you can expect from me between now and our next session is X, and what I would like to expect from you between now and our next session is Y. improvement in your cancellation rate, rebooking rate, satisfaction, whatever that case is. So there's shared contribution and responsibility. Hannah, what about for you?

Hannah Dunn: Yeah, no, I'd absolutely agree with that. I think that is exactly where the conversation goes around the why we need that as well, because we want to make sure that they're able to manage that while also taking on those extra responsibilities and just making sure that we're on the same page about what those are.

Ben Lynch: It's a great point. I think that don't ever feel the pressure to make a call, to make a decision in a session, in a meeting with a team member that you haven't already thought through deliberately. I think the best line is, this is really great insights. I know you've got questions for me. Is it okay if I just take this back, think through how we can make a sustainable plan for you, for the clinic, and get back to you next week or in a fortnight's time at our next mentoring session, where I think a number of clinic owners in the vein of that, can we chat being on the back foot, all of a sudden they feel like they need to have answers and be really articulate and like they're making decisions and commitments. that just give yourself 24 hours to think it through. Ideally a week or two to get back to that team and never feel like you need to solve it then and there. But don't leave them hanging. Really easy. Is it okay if I get back to you in a day or next week or next fortnight? Super easy way to go about it.

Hannah Dunn: And I think team members sometimes need that time because they've come in with this idea of what they're asking for, they're anxious, they're coming in hot sometimes because they just want to get it all out.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah. You know, it's, it's an important point that this is always, it has to be a conversation and a negotiation in the positive sense. We don't want to be held ransom by our team members who say, let me do this or I'm out. You know, I know humans don't typically speak like that, but sometimes that's the way it can come across. Nor do we want to be the dictators that say it's my way or the highway. It's got to be. Both. And so a couple of books that I would recommend or, you know, YouTube podcasts find the content out there would be Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss, an ex, I think he's FBI hostage negotiator. Never Split the Difference. I love Jefferson Fisher's new book, The Next Conversation. It is phenomenal about how to- He's been coming up in my feed recently. He's my favourite Instagram follow. The lawyer. The attorney. Yes. He's a trial attorney.

Ben Lynch: Yes. In, in like personal injury or workplace injury, right?

Jack O'Brien: Yeah. These questions is so insightful and, and, you know, deflecting like confrontational conversations. So we need to get good at, at having a bit of, you know, volley and tennis with our team members around like, yes, that's a great idea. And I was thinking this, and what if we did that? And Again, multiple conversations. You don't need to be held ransom, nor do you need to be a dictator. We need to learn the art of engineering conversations to get mutually agreed and beneficial outcomes.

Ben Lynch: I like that. When is the right time then to bring in the structure of, say, a unique position description that's different from their practitioner position description, and you're starting to formalise, these are the expectations I have of you in the marketing role, in the mentoring role, in the operations role, et cetera. When do you start to formalise that with a unique position description and expectations? Hannah?

Hannah Dunn: at the beginning. As soon as possible. Right from the start. Yeah, right from the start in sitting down and just saying, like, this will evolve, like, this is where we're at at the moment, you know, this is a new role, something we're introducing, this is where we're starting, you know, let's come back together in six weeks, eight weeks, whatever the period of time is, and we'll review how they're going. I think just being really transparent about the fact that it's new for you, it's new for them, and you're doing your best to give them some structure.

Jack O'Brien: I agree. And it's okay to have layers of specificity as well. So in context that our clinic, we would have, I'll say pathways and desire statements would be kind of one level of specificity. a generic position description or a broad position description, the next layer. And then, you know, your specific employment agreement is the final layer. And in that employment agreement is those explicit KPIs and expectations. And so we kind of over time refine these docs and get more and more granular until we find the exact position description for the human in front of us.

Ben Lynch: So J.O.B., how does a clinic avoid becoming top heavy with too many hours allocated to projects and portfolios and not enough on doing the main business, which is serving and seeing patients? Do you have any ratios or benchmarks or dashboarding tools, anything that a clinic owner could use as a reference point to make sure that they're not getting top heavy?

Jack O'Brien: getting too top heavy or unbalanced with your leadership or experience team versus what you're building is a real risk. And so we need to be able to keep our lasered attention on our profit and loss statement. And really that would be where the rubber hits the road. That's where you're setting some benchmarks and keeping an eye on things. We want to make sure that our COGS or cost of sales, however you want to frame that, ideally, well, is it cost effective as possible? It's a broad range with various allied health professions, somewhere between 40 and 55%, give or take. And so keep a really close eye on your cost of sales or cost of services. And then we want to look at maybe some human ratios. Hannah, you might be able to speak to leaders to therapists type ratios or equivalent. Paying super close attention to your profitability, Ben, is ultimately a measure and optimising each and every expense category to remain profitable.

Ben Lynch: And just before I go to you, Hannah, JOB, do you recommend people are separating out those salaries? So, you know, for X amount of time, it is going into the line item that is around, you know, being a practitioner. And then we've got a separate section. Can you just talk to that for those that are listening in that really do want to track this with a high degree of specificity?

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, we coach clinic owners through this all the time. You need to become a zero ninja or a numbers ninja. As in zero, the accounting platform. X-E-R-O, X, the zero ninja. And so what that looks like is you can apportion percentages of someone's salary to different line items in Xero. So to use the example before, it might be that a clinician, a person, 90% of their salary goes to therapist salaries and wages, and 10% of their salary goes to clinical leadership as a team category. And so what that looks like practically in your Xero is the therapist salaries, salaries, and wages is a part of your cost of sales or cost of services. And the salaries for clinical leadership, team leadership is an operational expense below the gross profit line.

Ben Lynch: And even in that is the distinction of separating therapist and admin wages. Typically default zero layout is all wages are going into.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, you've got to change that. Change that quick, smart. You must separate out your therapist and admin, and then you must further separate your therapists from their patient facing time to their leadership facing time.

Ben Lynch: Very soon we will do an episode on the zero profit and loss. We will probably lose 90% of the audience because it's as dry as dry can be as the South Australian outback.

Jack O'Brien: But it is so useful. Right. Yes, that's right. It's profitable and profitable ain't dry.

Ben Lynch: Profitable is exciting. I know we're going to have to up our coffee game for that episode, at least I will. But anyway, Hannah, the question was around helping clinic owners find that balance of sustainability, making sure they don't get too top heavy, any benchmarks, tools, calculations that you use or you've seen clinics use to make sure that they're running a sustainable pathway.

Hannah Dunn: No. Yes, I think it, I really think it depends on the clinic itself and those rolling break-evens and your profit and loss and what you can afford. So we did pull it all back recently. We've got two mentors for 24 team members and some would say that's not enough, but Belinda has a huge percentage of those members and doesn't do a lot of clinical work herself. And so I think it depends on the setup of what you've got and who is doing your mentoring, who is doing your projects, how much involvement you have as the director as well, whether you're stepping back totally. I do think it depends on your rolling break-evens.

Ben Lynch: It's such a good point, Hannah, because we talk at length about your version of success. It's different for everyone. Not only are business models different and different industries, are different. That's stating the bleeding obvious, Ben. But anyway, the fact is your version of success is different. And at any one time, as the clinic owner, different things matter to you. Same is true of your team. For instance, you might not be trying to absolutely create a cash cow of profitability because you're juggling your own health challenges and actually you need time to address that. And so what matters most to you is that there's less operational reliance on you and you're happy to pay team members to do so, just to use an example. But then there are other periods of time where you're working maybe towards an exit in the next few years and you want to get the ship running beautifully so you get a great valuation and insert anything in between there. And we kind of open this conversation around desire statements for our team members, defining their pathways. Perhaps the most important team member is you, the clinic owner. What do you want? Where do you see yourself in the next three to five years? And what matters to you specifically? Because I think that is part of figuring out what does the business need? What needs to be taken off of your plate to make it a sustainable journey for you, the clinic owner? Because if it's not, No one gets the support or help or the workplace that they need and deserve as you grow. Well, as we come to a close here, we've covered a number of different areas around sustainable pathways. If there was a key message that you had for clinic owners listening into this who are about to start on their journey of offering career pathways to retain their talented team, what would that be? J.O.B., you got a big smirk on your face.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, I think Your job is one of your key jobs is to make sure we nurture and retain great people, the cost of recruitment is high and getting higher, and so the effort and investment on retention. pays an ROI. It is worth doing. It is absolutely worth doing. You need to become not only a numbers ninja, but you need to become a ninja at architecting careers for your team. You know, we talk about going from year to career and really intentionally designing pathways unique to each of your individual practitioners. So like get excited about creating win-win outcomes for practitioners that sees them stay and stick and love being a part of your team. beyond two, three, five years. I know I went through a season for me and I got like viscerally frustrated and angry that the average life career span of a physio is like seven to eight years. I'm like, that stops with me. I'm going to have 10 year physios, you know, like how do I build it? How do I create something out of nothing? So we as clinic owners need to get fired up about this because literally the future of your clinic depends on your ability to retain and nurture great humans.

Hannah Dunn: Okay. And I would follow on from that. I'd just say be proactive rather than reactive to creating those pathways, like get in there, get those desire statements, understand your team, listen to what they want, while also knowing that you are creating incredible pathways before it comes to a conversation of I want more.

Ben Lynch: Perfect way to tie it all up, Hannah. My encouragement is where we started today's episode is you receiving the message. Hey, can we chat? I challenge the clinic owners listening to be the sender, not the recipient of that message. Get on the front foot, send your team members a message, say, can we chat? I want to talk about where we're going together. Well, another episode in the can. This format is just winning with the audience. We're getting such great feedback. and it's awesome to hear of the success stories of people applying what we're sharing on these episodes and seeing the real-world progress. If you would like to work with us one-on-one, please send us a message. Just send an email to bennettclinkmastery.com and we'll hook you up. Can you say it slower, please, Ben? What?

Ben Lynch: You're asking me to speak slower? A-E-N-T.

Ben Lynch: Yes, please. Gee whiz, they are some words I never thought I would hear. Can you, Ben, speak slower? Ben at clinicmastery.com. That's ben at clinicmastery.com. Send me an email. We can arrange a time to speak and help you grow your clinic sustainably.

Jack O'Brien: I think so. If you're listening to this and you have a colleague who has recently lost a team member or is frustrated with their team, forward this episode on. We want to get this in the hands of frustrated clinic owners so that we can collectively rise the tide and make sure clinic owners are excited about Pathways for their team members. Love it.

Ben Lynch: Well, we'll see you on another episode next week. Bye bye.