Ben Lynch: And so this is Christmas. They'll be here any moment, any moment now.

Hannah Dunn: Have you been sitting here since 12.17 when you posted the link? Oh, I have.

Ben Lynch: Just alone with my thoughts talking into the abyss. I love the sweater. Thanks. Is that cold brew? Ginger ale?

Jack O'Brien: No, it's not a beer. It's an energy drink.

Ben Lynch: Oh, okay.

Jack O'Brien: Just in my, yes, my beer tankard. Is that what it's called?

Jack O'Brien: What? A beer tankard? Is it tankard? Is that what the vessel is called?

Ben Lynch: G'day, good people. Welcome to the Grow Your Clinic podcast by Clinic Mastery. Here's what's coming up inside of this episode. This might be a hard one for you, Jack O'Brien, because you're a stubborn bloke, but what did you change your mind about this year? Oh, come on!

Hannah Dunn: That is one of our goals for next year, to really redo our values and to really present them. We don't have them up around the clinic, clearly.

Jack O'Brien: What I've seen hasn't worked is clinic owners being consumed by hypothetical circumstances.

Hannah Dunn: They're only doing it because they're there. Like if we removed that support, we might actually create some more intentional learning moments.

Jack O'Brien: But what you can control is your recruitment and how you fill your books. And that is how you win the infinite game of business.

Ben Lynch: Speaking of pudding, it's almost time for Christmas pudding. Oh, that's going to be good. This episode will be right up your Allie if you're looking to hear our summary of 2025. We're diving into our own year in review, and trust me, you'll want to hear Hannah and Jack's take on what worked better than expected, what didn't work and didn't move the needle, and their biggest surprise of the year. Before we dive in, today's episode is brought to you by AllieClinics.com. If you're the kind of clinic owner who loves to feel organized and stay ahead of the chaos, you'll love Allie. Think of it as your digital clone. It's the single source of truth for all your clinics, policies, systems, and training. Test it for free at AllieClinics.com. And in other news, applications are now open to work with us one-on-one at Clinic Mastery. If you want support to grow your clinic and bring your vision to life, just email hallowettclinicmastery.com with the subject line podcast and we'll line up a time to chat. All right, let's get into the episode. It is episode 339. We're coming to the end of the year. In fact, by the time this airs, it's probably been Christmas, heading into the new year. So Merry Christmas, folks, and Happy New Year from all of us here at CM. This episode's going to be a little bit different. I think this time of year, most people are starting to mentally clock off. They want to have a break. I don't think anyone wants another to-do or framework right now, though we've got plenty of those. I think we've covered some extremely practical stuff in the episodes this year. A lot of folks in the community would pay coaches for the stuff that we've been publishing on the podcast for free. You should see what you get when you're a member. If you're not already, come and join us. A lot of members do listen in. Instead, I thought, let's pause and look back. What actually happened this year? What didn't work? What surprised us? What did we change our mind about along the way? Not as a highlight reel, but as an honest reflection. The stuff that we'd do again, the stuff we'd do sooner or later. I'd love to pick your brains, and Hannah, I'm interested to see where you go with this. Obviously, you can play both sides as clinic owner still to this day and also CMT member. And Joby, you and I can sort of give a peek behind the curtain as to what's happened here at CM. But let's start with what worked better than expected this year. So I've got a couple here and I'm interested to see what comes out of our conversations. Oh yeah, that happened this year. So, I had a couple of points. Number one, our move to Palm Cove for the retreat for members, we previously for what, the last four years, JB, we've been at Noosa, beautiful spot, lovely spot, but we changed it up to go to Palm Cove. Not only was it like a different setting, that was my first time in Palm Cove and Cairns, much more tropical vibe. Good swimming. Sorry? Good swimming. Good swimming. Great with the crocodiles. I mean, if you're an adrenaline junkie, you would love it. There were a few out there. I'm not sure they saw the signs.

Jack O'Brien: For those listening who are interested in joining us, there is a pool that you are welcome to swim in safely.

Hannah Dunn: But this actually, when you sent through the info on what we were talking about, it absolutely came to mind as one of my top things that, yeah, we changed. I think it was a really positive change.

Ben Lynch: So I'm interested in what your perspective is on why it was positive. I think one, just the variety piece, just to mix it up. We have a lot of members that come repeatedly each year. It's kind of an anchor in their diary to get away, think about their business, be around some cool folks, hopefully they think that too, and rest and relax as well. But I think the variety and change up was really good. What else do you think worked, Hannah, about the move to Palm Cove?

Hannah Dunn: I think different spaces, like I felt we could have more space and there was more spaces to sort of go to, um, which allowed for people to sort of work sort of closer to each other while also being spread apart, if that makes sense. Like you could still sort of informally learn and then sort of jump over two or three tables and then get your own work done and then overhear something and jump into. that conversation a little bit, which I think worked really well. And I think also just having, um, just, I just felt like you could see a lot more of the spaces in which people could go to, which meant that people might still have felt connected while being a bit further away.

Ben Lynch: Yes, very open plan. You're still seeing one another. I agree. I've got a few more to roll through. The other was we made a change internally this year to recruit for a support specialist role on the team. Carol joined the team. I think that was a different type of role than what we've had before. I think it's been really fantastic for members to have that additional layer of support on top of their consultant and coach. I think that worked better than expected, we tried a few different things. And to go back actually on the Palm Cove, we always try and think through like, how's this going to work? Where's this going to fall down? Like, how do we get the best out of it? But there's always that unknown. So when I say better than expected, like we had expectations, it's worked out better than those, I think, as well. And on that,

Jack O'Brien: There were plenty of things that didn't go as expected in Palm Cove. And so I'm really excited for 2026 retreat in June in Palm Cove because the first time is always, you know, it's exciting and it did go better than expected, but 2026 will be even better because we have fixed the wifi and we know what to expect in terms of the venue and the food. And so it's like the first one was great. Second one, uh, yeah. Always gets better.

Hannah Dunn: I was just going to say on that wifi point, I think what that really showed us is for those of you that weren't there, we did have some issues with the wifi, which is a problem when we're all trying to work on our wifi, but the responsiveness of the team there and the creative solutions they came up with were so good that it just gives more confidence on us going back that we know that they're very solutions focused if there's anything that goes wrong.

Ben Lynch: You got to see in real time a team that really cared about service, trying to fix it. A lot was out of their control, but they were doing everything they possibly could, as frustrating as it was. I've got two more. The other one that came to mind was the changes we made to the podcast here. If I go back 18 months or so ago, we ran with a very interview heavy style and typically one-to-one. bringing you in, Hannah, bringing Beck in, and we try to make it a lot more conversational, like to pick our brains. We have a couple of notes beforehand, but what you see is what you get. A lot of us are reacting in real time to it. I know other podcasts are way more scripted, and this is trying to give you a sense for what it's like even behind the scenes here at CM when we have coaches or consultant training, or we pick up the phone or have a Zoom, and we sort of bounce off one another. and get different perspectives. I've got some thoughts on how we continue to evolve that into the new year, but I think that's just been a really great change. We didn't know how it would be, but we're seeing a flood of feedback come through in the inbox on the reviews that we just hadn't seen sort of 18 months, 24 months ago, not to that degree. So yeah, big kudos. That's worked a lot better than expected. I don't know if you have any other comments or you're just like, yep, that's good. That works.

Jack O'Brien: Look, you've taken the words out of my mouth. I would have said the podcast is my number one, what's worked better than expected, both for us and for some members that have started some sneaky podcasts. And so, what I've been most surprised by is the amount of clinic owners getting in touch as a result of the podcast, sending me an email, scheduling some time. my diary, my personal diary is open for all podcast listeners to come and have a conversation about how to grow your clinic. And so I've personally really enjoyed the interactivity, both of these sessions, adding Hannah and Beck in is an elite call, but being able to have conversations with listeners is, it just brightens my day. So that's unexpected, but awesome.

Hannah Dunn: Yeah. And that's, um, it's been amazing to join the podcast for me too. And also it's allowed me to get to know a whole lot more of our members. I get DMs from our current members saying, Hey, you mentioned this on the podcast. Can you share a bit more about that? Or, um, there were some. You know, like my sister's friend from high school was a physio. She reached out and said, Hey, I saw you on the podcast. I'm actually thinking of joining. And he's now a member. And so there's lots of different members like that who've reached out, which has been really lovely to make, to reconnect with people that I haven't spoken to in a long time.

Ben Lynch: I think the unexpected part as well is, and Hannah, you and I spoke about this when we're talking about having you on, was like, you don't know how it's going to go. We bounce off one another so well off camera, off recording, off air, and it's like, is that going to carry across? Because sometimes it can be a little bit tricky, do you know what I mean, as well, when you've got dodgy internet like I do. You know, you cut in front of one another and does that, you know, charisma or connection carry across in a way that allows you to effectively communicate, get the message across so that everyone who's tuning in, your time is valuable. You want to make sure you've got some practical guidance and suggestions to carry through into your life and business. So I'm so glad that, you know, it's always a little tricky or turbulent in the first few, but I feel like we've really found our feet, which is awesome. And then the final one I've got is the rollout of the new CMBA, which includes the Practice Leaders Program and Mentor Mastery. We'd had this sort of suspicion two, three years ago when clinic owners, I think you're a great example, Hannah, would bring team members along to different things or try and get them involved. And we'd get these requests, hey, can you help me train my team? And we tried a few different ways, whether it's a culture day in person, et cetera. creating these products and programs, but to just bring it all in under the one roof, under the one membership, I think it's been massive logistically. We're unsure how it would go despite putting a lot of effort into rolling it out, but it's been awesome to see the reception of folks that have lent in and probably just on that part to connect the two, how many members are actually listening in to the podcast regularly as a bit of additional support or accountability in between their coaching sessions has been great. So for those members that are tuning in, well done and thank you for tuning in.

Jack O'Brien: You go, Hannah.

Hannah Dunn: I was just going to say, if you don't have your team in mentor mastery or practice leaders, just to share my experience in having my leadership team in there. And it's important that the directors of the clinics are not in their space so that they can talk freely and get that support. And so I'm not in there, I'm not seeing what's happening, but I do get a summary of what's happening. And the feedback has been like, they'll be in session and then they'll think, oh, that's what Hannah says, or that's what, you know, we do in the clinic. And it's that language of consistency and not hearing it from me, but hearing it from someone else that's been really powerful for us. So it really does support the whole cohesion of the whole team.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah. It's interesting. We bundled in. So for those unfamiliar, Mentor Mastery and Practice Leaders Program. Practice Leaders is, of course, for your practice managers, admin team, mentor mastery for your clinical leaders and mentors. And they used to be standalone programs and we bundled them in throughout the course of this year. And in my conversations with clinic owners who are exploring getting help, they're just unfamiliar that there's help out there for their admin teams or for their senior clinicians. And so it's been a really wonderful way for clinic owners to invest in the professional development and the personal development of their admin teams, of their clinical teams. And it's just a part of your business academy membership. It's there for teams that are scaling up and adding leadership into their clinic.

Ben Lynch: In answer to the question, what worked better than expected, I'd love to know what you had down. We're going to cover a couple of other questions, folks, so stay tuned. We're going to talk about what didn't work, what didn't move the needle. Time for a little confessional. What did you change your mind about this year? What was a buffalo or a surprise as we call it? And then if you could rewind in the last 12 months and start something earlier or stop it sooner, what would they be? So we want to reveal a little bit here as to what's going on. But Hannah, what worked better than expected for you this year?

Hannah Dunn: What worked better than expected for me this year was having Belinda be our sole senior principal team leader. So previously we have had two or three people holding team leader roles and this year we rolled it right back and put Belinda as our only team leader, like our principal team leader. We have a couple of other sub team leaders, but not um, managing the team and we pulled all supervision and mentoring back to Belinda and then Gronja does a couple of them as well. But it just meant having that, because what we recognize is that we probably hadn't trained our mentors or supervisors in the way in which that we would love them to run sessions. So there was a lot of inconsistency around the support the team was receiving. And when you've got a team of 25 that needs to be really consistent and have really good systems in place so that we know what is happening in those sessions. And I guess what we learned, I think it's helped with retention because we were hearing about things sooner that we didn't even realize, like we didn't know what we didn't know. And so having it just be Belinda primarily and then Gronja doing a couple has just really shown us that having real consistency across the team has given us a lot more strength. And it's freed up a lot more of my time because people are thinking, which team leader's on today? And there's a lot of that, um, decision-making that just has been removed by having one person in that role.

Ben Lynch: How did you come to that decision? And I'm interested in this because I've got my other monitor over here out of shot. I've been doing a little bit of reflection on the year and trying to unpack, okay, we arrived at this decision, whether it worked or didn't work. I love that. I think it's a Howard Marks, you can't tell the quality of a decision by the outcome, because there might be other factors that influenced it. But you want to understand what was the process behind the decision. How did we come to it? Was it a certain structure of team meetings, an agenda change, certain personnel, or we did a different reflection or analysis beforehand? Because ultimately, everything's downstream of your thinking. decisions and actions and then outcomes. So I think one of the keys for every business owner is like, in the new year, how do I get better at making decisions or judgments quicker? And even if they're, you know, turn out to be a mistake, iterating quicker. So what changed for you? You've got some of the rationale there, but just talk us through getting to that decision.

Hannah Dunn: So I've spoken before about the fact that I did have a point where I had five team leaders. What changed for me was really understanding the numbers. I think I've been a lot more in the numbers in the last 12 months, really getting clear on the fact that when you have five team leaders and you have a team leader meeting, you're paying for five people to be present. Whereas having one person present does really impact those numbers. I think also the amount we were creating some learned dependency on our team. We were seeing them really seeking out the team leaders for things that we just thought they're only doing it because they're there. Like if we removed that support, we might actually create some more intentional learning moments and Michelle is amazing. She's been on our team for eight years and you know, we love Michelle, but her strength is not supervising. Her strength is not having challenging conversations around KPIs and Michelle is totally open with me sharing that. She, and so I put on my big girl pants and I actually openly spoke to Michelle about that. It's really hard to have Michelle in a team leader role. She was a subbie with us when we started out so long ago. So we transitioned over to employment. then has always been our team leader and then was alongside Belinda. But then I sat down and said, do you really enjoy doing the hard stuff? And she was like, no, I just want to do the fun stuff. And so now Michelle runs our external supervision and training, which is fun. You can just be in, you know, you still got to have conversations that are around numbers and billables and things, but it's not the same as having the same accountability in the team. So I think having a tough conversation, which actually turned out to be a relief for both of us,

Ben Lynch: That's a great distinction. How often do we hear that? Like I was prepared this was going to be really hard and maybe that's why I delayed it, but when I had it, it was actually a sense of relief for everyone in the room. So I love that you got more clear on your numbers and what they meant for you. And then you said, I have to have a conversation with a team member. Okay, cool. Really nice. What else worked better than expected?

Hannah Dunn: Um, I think getting really clear on our position descriptions and while we had some position descriptions, they were, there was overlaps in some of the roles. So the positions in particular that I'm talking about, uh, our finance manager, our operations manager, and what a practice manager looks like. Louise has been on our team again around that eight years, but that role has evolved and she's actually moved to the country, so is not on site. So we navigated how that would look, keeping Louise on the team while not being present in the clinic as regularly as she had been. And so getting really clear on those positions. And what led us there was also being a lot more structured in our planning throughout the year. So ensuring that we did have those 120-day meetings and ensuring that our agendas were really clear for our meetings. And I've spoken to this before as well, but all part of those position descriptions was also determining who needed to be in what meetings when. Because again, with the numbers, we don't want to be paying people to be in meetings when they don't need to be there. But also it's really helped the flow of communication. So, um, you know, if something is being brought up by Belinda in team leadership that needs to go to Louise, then I'll take it there on a Wednesday from our Monday meeting and vice versa, rather than the three of us sitting there where half of it's relevant to Louise, half's relevant to Belinda, and we're just cogging up their cognitive load with things that aren't as relevant.

Ben Lynch: Sounds like you've taken a much more commercial lens and efficiency lens recently. Thanks, Sam. Well done. And there's obviously a lot more nuance to it. There's people, there's emotions, but as business owners, first thing is like stay in business and that requires a commercial lens. I think of the Warren Buffett rules for investing. It's like rule one, don't lose money. Rule two, don't forget rule one. In a similar way, it's like, don't go out of business, you know, by making, you know, reckless decisions because you haven't gone into the numbers. And you can pay people more. You can give them pathways. If you understand the numbers deeply and well, you can make better decisions. Is there anything else that you would add to the list before we throw around the horn to JOB?

Hannah Dunn: They're the main ones that come to mind.

Ben Lynch: Nice. Yep. They're two big, meaningful ones. What about you, Jacobrin? What worked better than expected? You've already said the podcast. Did you come up with anything else?

Jack O'Brien: Are you assuming I didn't?

Ben Lynch: Well, I don't know. Did the dog eat your homework?

Jack O'Brien: We don't have homework. Maybe I need to put up the feed. That's great. From a clinic mastery perspective, what's worked well is our workshops this year. We've kind of transitioned some of our webinars to be less lecturing you and more doing the do with you. So, you don't leave with a to-do list, you leave with a to-done list and it seems like clinic owners, to-done, you leave with a done list. Anyway.

Ben Lynch: To-done.

Jack O'Brien: Look, clinic owners loving it. It's super pragmatic. It's nothing showy or pretentious. It's just in the dirt, getting it done, keeping it real with clinic owners. So, that's been great. Also had here, and this will probably be what went better and what didn't. go as good. But AI, I've seen so many clinic owners take the plunge, not just with generic chat GPT fluff, but invest in things like Lingo AI for their reception or Heidi or all of the … There's so many. I'm going to get in trouble here if I start naming names. Hashtag not sponsored yet, though we're open. If you're listening, there's podcasts.

Ben Lynch: We're also very open to coffee sponsorship.

Jack O'Brien: So seeing clinic owners embark upon that AI journey has been, yeah, I think better than expected. Most clinic owners that I speak with who have invested in AI are pleasantly surprised with the productivity and proficiency that they've picked up. Then I'd say thirdly, recruiting. Now, this will be perhaps a little contentious, but I've seen clinic owners double down, triple down even, on recruiting good people for the long term. They're not just thinking, oh, quick, I need to hunt and get someone now, but I need to farm, as the great Shane Davis would say, I need to farm for my next five, 10, 15 recruits. your mindset changes, things go better than expected, playing the long game. I know many are struggling with recruitment, so I don't want to necessarily sugarcoat it, but when you commit to the journey of building your clinic into a recruitment machine, it's amazing how good people show up.

Ben Lynch: Very nice to hear. I need to catch some of these recordings of the workshops you've done.

Jack O'Brien: Well, here's the magic, Ben. They don't get recorded.

Ben Lynch: Oh, because there's nothing explosive. You either do the work or you don't. Fair enough. I don't mind that. I don't mind that. That's good. All right. What didn't work? I'm going to go first here. I could be so much better on the A11y content front and providing education, the organic marketing of A11y. We've relied a lot on partnerships and some paid stuff, which has worked really wonderfully. I need to get out there. I need to beat the drum. I need to help folks. The other thing that didn't work so well, in an effort to really understand what's going on with Allie over the last 12 months or thereabouts, I have offered a lot of one-on-one support. I've emailed folks. I've slacked folks. I've been there to support them, there to nag them to say, how can I help you install it? And I've actually found it's been way more effective to do it in the group style of sessions because folks have been learning and seeing how others have set up their Allie. And that's often what they want to see. So I've been running a weekly group session for an hour. It's demo for those folks that are typically trialling. Though I'm getting these regular folks that are now paying customers of Allie come along just to hear and see what others are doing with their setup and get some coaching and guidance on it.

Jack O'Brien: Okay, question for you, Ben. What has been the barrier with content for Allie social? Because I'd imagine you're not alone, like how many clinic owners are like, I wish my social content was better. So what's been your thinking?

Ben Lynch: Look, it's part laziness and not prioritizing it is the essence and prioritizing other things at the expense of that. And a lot of the effort has been on those that already have an account that are trialling the product, that are paying customers. So a lot of internal focus rather than external focus. largely doing some of the podcast stuff as my marketing outlet. So, I've already got the plan for 2026, so I know you're going to keep me accountable to it. Mark my words here, we'll revisit this hopefully in 12 months and it's doing some wonderful things. All right, that's my confessional. What about you, Hannah Dunn? What didn't work? What didn't move the needle?

Hannah Dunn: Uh, for me, we had a scheduler and I think the role itself works well.

Ben Lynch: Is that a human or a tool?

Hannah Dunn: Yeah, a person, a person, a role where their whole role was to focus on, um, it was the second person we'd had in the role. The first person, um, finished off. And so we put a second person into the role and. We just were really clear at the start of the year and said, this person needs to be on site, they need to be present in our clinics, they need to work across all three clinics and that will be important for the person who gets this role. And then the person started and they were like, oh, I just need to see if I can work from home on this day in the afternoon. And we were like, okay. And then we sort of continually bent and ended up with them really not coming into clinic a whole lot at all. And for us, we just felt like that was really tricky. And there was a lot of personal things going on for this person. It was no fault of theirs necessarily, but it was just about us potentially not having that conversation to say, you know what, we actually set this role up really clearly about. how we needed it to work in the clinic. And it's really challenging us because we really hold a value of that flexibility, supporting family, doing all those things, but it's just not aligning. And so, um, the scheduler ended up, um, on mat leave, which we ended up doing through till their mat leave. But I think if I was doing it again or looking at it, I would set clearer boundaries right from the start around, um, you know, they did the best they could in that role, but we weren't clear about where we had set the expectations and holding ourselves accountable to say, no, you know what, we actually, the reason is the last time it didn't work because the person was offsite. We need, we really need this role to be onsite. That's what was committed to in the interview and in the contract. We need to stick to that. And I think that can sometimes be really challenging when you've got someone in front of you that you want to support while also having the needs of the clinic needing to be met as well. But I think moving forward, I am much clearer on what we need. And, you know, we use it all the time and say it all the time, but clear is kind. And I think really sticking to that and being firm but fair around what we need.

Ben Lynch: That's a great point. maintaining those expectations or standards. I have that later as well. We're human, like Kim Scott presents it so beautifully, you know, with the ruinous empathy portion of that quadrant. Jack, you got to interview Kim Scott a couple of years back, right? And go through it. It's tricky. You know, some days you get it absolutely right. You feel like it was clear. Everyone's on the same page. And then there are days where you go, oh, probably let that go. And then there's multiple days where you go, I'd probably let that go. And all of a sudden you go, I've got to have that conversation. So none of us are perfect. I think you're trying to get more of those days where you are clearer than not to build that culture. What about you, J.O.B.? What didn't work?

Jack O'Brien: I'm going to go rapid fire. I've got two for us for Clinic Mastery and two for Clinic Owners. For us at Clinic Mastery, we had a couple of team member decisions to make that we didn't make fast enough. Specifically, we moved quicker. Successively. So something that took us 12 weeks, we learned from that. The next decision that had to be made, we moved in give or take eight weeks and then three or four weeks. But the lesson was letting things go beyond when we'd knew that there was a natural logical conclusion. And not all of these are negative necessarily. It's about pathways and making sure that people are aligned. So that was something around the speed of decision-making, number one. And number two, hand up, we made some tech errors at Clinic Mastery this year. We sent some SMSs and emails that were not welcomed and that was our error. There's no tech glitch. We just pressed the wrong button. and we are human after all and that was embarrassing and disappointing and costly. But I think, look, I've done this in my clinic. We've done this in Clinic Mastery. we're not perfect. I think the key thing is there that we own it, we learn from it, we move forward, we have a bit of a laugh. Look, at the end of the day, I'm going to be careful on what jokes or analogies I make, but it was just a text message. It's not the end of the world.

Ben Lynch: Yes. There was one semi-recently, a colourful reply to

Jack O'Brien: Oh, the replies.

Ben Lynch: And look, if you're- If it was a reply that was just colourful, to put it lightly.

Jack O'Brien: You expect a level of unsubscribes and replies. Yeah, sure. We get some fruity ones, let's say. So that didn't work as expected. On the clinic owner side, there's two things that particularly came to mind. Number one is lead gen ads on Facebook. Using the lead form component. What we're seeing some of the best clinic owners do now is amplify great content. It's not so much about the direct responseness. That still works, but the cost is increasing and the quality is decreasing, quality of lead and client, that is. So thinking about your social strategy and your lead gen strategy into 2026 is something for clinic owners to learn from. And this may also be a little… I'm not deliberately… I'm not intentionally contentious, but Hannah, you can speak to this one. What I've seen hasn't worked is clinic owners being consumed by hypothetical circumstances.

Hannah Dunn: I was like, we've gone so long without mentioning anything. Here we are. And I was like, I'm really trying not to mention it.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, do it. Well, clinically, live and die by the news cycle or what some Muppet has shared. Don't read the tea. You read the tea leaves, it doesn't move the needle, folks. Let's stick with what we can control or influence, but anything outside of that, let it go and put the blinkers on. The great Dave Ramsey talks about gazelle intensity, and what has worked is clinic owners having blinkers on, intense focus, like a gazelle. I don't know, gazelles don't chase you. have intense focus? Well, they do when they're running away from the lion, I believe. I haven't got much time in Edinburgh. Get on it.

Ben Lynch: Forget the Facebook groups here and the scenario A and scenario B. I think perhaps some of it is like you feel like you're doing something because there's a lot of unknowns. So if I'm in the post, if I'm in the thread, I feel like I'm across the news, but there's like bigger decisions for you to be making about your business to yeah, consider the next 12, 24 months and beyond, but good point.

Hannah Dunn: And I think that is really relevant in regards to whether it's NDIS or whether it's a shiny object where you see what someone else is doing and try and shift it. We do see a lot of that becoming the challenge that clinic owners have.

Jack O'Brien: Correct. You've got to think what's always going to be true. We always need to continually attract, nurture, and retain good people. We always need to continue to help more people in our communities and find new clients and service and create experiences for our clients that are memorable and meaningful. These things are always true. The funding mechanisms or the economy or the inflation rate and all this. I'm not trying to be crass here. These things do have an impact. The impact is probably a little less than we think, but what you can control is your recruitment and how you fill your books. That is how you win the infinite game of business.

Hannah Dunn: And I think also just making sure that when you are consuming so much information and so many tips and tricks and all of that, that you are really putting it through your business filter, your own filter, because what we see is people really trying to change to do what someone else is doing, but it doesn't necessarily align or they've already recently had a change in that area. And the flip side of that is also sometimes we provide, you know, a system or a strategy and people think, and not only us, a whole lot of other places provide systems and strategies and people think, I'm going to make this my own and they completely revamp it when it's almost that don't fix what isn't broken while also putting it through your own filter and making sure that it works for you.

Jack O'Brien: I can feel it coming. Here it comes. It's the rant. The soapbox is here. You know what hasn't worked? To your point, Hannah, is clinic owners listening to some pundit with an opinion and a followership on Instagram they've bought from some robot. We don't need to listen to every Muppet with an opinion on Instagram. Pay attention to who you listen to, and whether that's some overpaid journo at Legacy Media, or whether it's some conspiracy theorist, or whether it's someone who's out to make a quick buck and repackage, just slap a new label on something they can get from OpenAI, careful who you listen to. Pay attention to the folks that have got their head down, their hands are in the dirt doing the do. and they got the proof in the pudding. Clinton is getting distracted by someone with an opinion and a shiny Instagram. Beware.

Hannah Dunn: And just following that path, like choosing those people well and then getting deep into that so that you're not just surface level with what you think.

Jack O'Brien: You can't go past that coach relationship. In a world where AI will spit out whatever you prompt it to spit out, it's the humans that connect on an emotional values level that have the proof in the pudding and the methodology and the operating model to get it done. Ultimately, that's what it comes down to.

Ben Lynch: Speaking of pudding, it's almost time for Christmas pudding. Ooh, that's going to be good.

Jack O'Brien: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you a mince pie guy then? I'm partial to it.

Ben Lynch: I'm not like absolutely, but yeah. Why? Are you going to send me some?

Jack O'Brien: It's mince pies mid.

Ben Lynch: No, not a fan.

Jack O'Brien: Hannah, go to, let's say Christmas dessert for you. Come on, here's your chance.

Hannah Dunn: Yeah, definitely a pudding. Also, I'm celiac, so I need a gluten-free pudding.

Jack O'Brien: The gluten-free ones are dense, right?

Hannah Dunn: But I didn't like a mince tart before I was diagnosed.

Jack O'Brien: You know what? My wife's a celiac. She said, how good's Christmas? Pavlova is the best dessert on the planet, and it's gluten-free.

Ben Lynch: That's good. Yes, correct. I love sticky baked pudding. That's like kind of an all year round thing. Yeah. But I have it at Christmas. All right. This might be a hard one for you, Jack O'Brien, because you're a stubborn bloke, but what did you change your mind about this year? Oh, come on. Firm beliefs loosely held.

Jack O'Brien: Hannah, get started, I'll have to rack my memory.

Ben Lynch: Oh, yes, see? See? Yes, I'm like, oh, I'm not sure. I'm correct all the time, folks.

Hannah Dunn: Um, we changed our minds around two different things. We discussed the idea of increasing our fees for our clients, um, which we didn't do. And also I looked at changing our awards program, which also I did not do, or I made a small tweak, but it wasn't to the extent that I was expecting. And the reason I didn't change them is because I had had feedback from the team that I took on board and thought these were the solutions to what they wanted. I took it to the team and they're like, no, we're good. And I was like, okay, all right, let me just process that one. Um, because I think sometimes we go in really quickly with the, let's try and solve this in a way that seems effective. And then when we actually check off with our team, they're like, oh no, There's other solutions to this. So, for example, with the fee increase, we just decided that we'd make sure we were charging accurately for all of the indirect work that we were doing so that the individuals that were getting the service were getting charged for that work, whether that were NDIS or privately paying or however that were funded.

Ben Lynch: You raise a really good point, and you spoke about it before, in the sense of you just see something another clinic's doing and you want to do it yourself. Not that there's any guarantees here, but one of the questions we often ask in coaching clinic owners is, what is the problem you're trying to solve? What is the real problem? And typically they might be like, oh, I need to do a reward structure or change my rewards. And it's like, hold up, that might be the case, but what's the problem that you're trying to solve? And then trying to unpack, is that really the problem you're trying to solve? So I love that even just as a filter for folks.

Hannah Dunn: Yes.

Ben Lynch: Okay.

Hannah Dunn: And I think if I answered those questions for what we were trying to solve, it was around team burnout, for lack of a better word, or feeling like I want to reward them more, but there were other ways in which they felt aligned better with our values.

Ben Lynch: Yeah. We all make those mistakes, like Jack and I, how many conversations this year have we both had, like me to you, you to me kind of thing, like, hold up, what are we actually trying to solve here? Like, help me understand. You might have the right solution, but so often we're jumping to the solution and retrofitting what we're trying to solve for. That's good. Anything else, Hannah, that you changed your mind about? That was it?

Hannah Dunn: That was the main one.

Ben Lynch: You're doing better than Jack so far, so well done. He's still racking his brains. He's not sure he's changed his mind ever. I'll go with mine because that'll give you more time to think, J.O.B. You perfect specimen. Anyway, mine was around the performance marketing. You spoke to it before, J.O.B., in the sense of like cost of acquisition going up, that sort of direct call to action, logical, clients only go through this journey to become a client. And while elements of that are true, I've been reimmersing myself in the how brands grow stuff from the Ehrenberg Bass Institute, notably authored by Byron Sharp. And just that mental availability for folks to know that you exist when they have the thought, you know, I need, you know, someone to help my knee or I need some help with how my kids are behaving. And they then think, oh, you're the solution because you've got that mental availability. Therefore, practically the investment in a lot of those somewhat hard to measure things, though still measurable, that are typically more the organic, the spread of content, the referral partnerships, the networks that you've got, the community that you've built, that take a while, but are so key to sustainable brand building over time. And we'd love to get him on the podcast, hopefully in the new year or one of the team there, to talk more about how this applies in a healthcare context. Um, but anyway, that's probably, I've changed my mind on relying a lot on the performance-based marketing and the logical sequence of spend this money on ads to get this result. And going back to, I'll say back to, cause we spend a lot of time on the organic side a few years back. Some of those other things that, um, you can't say we did this and this was the result in two weeks, you know, they take a little bit longer typically to build. Anyway, that's probably what I've changed my mind on most this year. Maybe there are others. JB, anything come to mind for you?

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, I think I've been There's something personal and then something professional. On the personal front, I've changed my mind about investment decisions and for a long time have been just an index fund guy that splashed out into some property this year. You did. I've kind of ragged on property for a number of years and yet here I am. So, that's been good. I get reminded of this often from my property friends. So, definitely changed my mind. And the other thing is probably, yes, it's changed my mind and more so around acknowledging bias and overcoming personal bias. The value of in-person events. You know, I spend most of my day yelling at a computer screen and helping people through Zoom. And there's a tendency to just want to be stuck in, you know, I'm an introvert. I love my own little bubble. I love my company, I love my own coffee, and I don't have to leave home a whole lot. And so, but I see the value in human connection, in real-time human connection, both for our business and getting our team together. On a personal front, you know, it's that iron sharpening iron and sitting across the table from a real human. But then also seeing clinic owners who lean into real-time human events, whether it's a workshop for prospective clients or bring in referrers or just doing the do, getting out, pounding the pavement. and connecting with referrers one-on-one, human connections are valuable and they're worth investing in. And not just investing dollars, but investing the time, energy and effort to get a return.

Ben Lynch: I'm glad we recorded this.

Jack O'Brien: More open-minded than I get credit for.

Ben Lynch: All right, we've got a few more to get through here. Hannah, anything else there on the change your mind? Otherwise, we're going to go to biggest surprise or a buffalo – I think we spoke about this on a previous episode – a great activity to do with the kids at the dinner table is what's your high, low, buffalo. I'm not sure where this comes from, so forgive me, I don't have the credit on hand, but what was a high for the day, what was a low for the day, and then buffalo is a surprise. What surprised you doesn't have to be grandiose or big, but it just surprised you. I would say JOB, your evolution from elevating to the growth team at CM, if I had gone back in January of this year, that was not on my bingo card for 2025. So that's a good surprise is back into the mix. I think where you add a tremendous amount of value and inspiration, ideation to how we support a lot of clinic owners in their journey, especially their early journey. and in the marketing side of things. So yeah, great evolution. That's a surprise, I think. Hannah, what about you?

Hannah Dunn: I just want to quickly touch on the Hilo Buffalo because TB mentioned it at a retreat two years ago and we've done it every night as a family since then with our kids. And my four-year-old for the first time in the last couple of weeks, we've been doing it for two years, has started to have something surprising or something that he's loved about the day. Previously, it's been having dinner with my family. And so it's just been really good. So it doesn't matter how young your kids are, just starting it as a habit is amazing. But for me, from CM's perspective, it was a surprise and delight to be invited onto the podcast, which has been amazing. And for all those listening, I absolutely have imposter syndrome. And in the beginning it was like, what, really? Okay, we'll just make it till we make it. But that has been amazing. I feel like this is terrible to say about my clinic and my team but I have an amazing team but some of the things they have done this year have really just blown me away. Eliza has gone and is inside a paediatrician clinic And I was invited to the Christmas party and she was invited and we actually just didn't get a moment to cross over as to whether each of us was going. But on the day I said, sorry, are you going? And she was like, absolutely, I'm going. Like, it's unpaid. It's not, you know, I didn't have any expectation she would be there, but she'd signed up and she was going. it was a great night to spend with her, but did that off her own back without us asking. There have been other examples of that from other team members where I sort of just think, gosh, I'm so lucky, but it does still surprise me with like some of the ways the team go above and beyond that I just would not have expected them to do or you know, picking up a client outside of hours because they desperately needed a report done or something like that where it's just, there's not even a need to ask, it's just the hand up. And, you know, on the flip side of that, there's definitely been other times to sort of, you know, where things haven't been um, as positive or above the line as I would have liked them to be. And, you know, all of that has led me to really think about our values. And that is one of our goals for next year to really redo our values and to really present them and have them, we don't have them up around the clinic clearly. And so I would really like to make them more of a forefront there, but, um, just ultimately the way in which the team support one another and shout out to one another and all of those things has just this year in particular being well above what we've seen previously. Shout out to Eliza.

Ben Lynch: Great work. What about you, J.O.B.??

Jack O'Brien: Well, yeah, on the high-low buffalo around the dinner table, my now three-year-old, when he was two, you're not allowed to say, my high was X, my low was Y, and my buffalo is Z. You have to really emphasize the buffalo. And you have to like squeeze out the B for the buffalo. It's hilarious. And if you just say, oh, my buffalo was, he goes, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like some old Italian nono. So my buffalo for the year. Hmm. I think the I probably alluded to it before, but the explosion of social media … We've been in social media for 10, 15 years now. I remember back in the day, in the early 2010s, whatever we call those, in the early teens, and really that's the initial groundswell Gary Vaynerchuk kind of times, but here we are 15 years later and it's We're really starting to see the hockey stick curve, J-curve take off, different types of content, reels, things being shared in the DM culture socially is huge. So clinic owners capitalizing on those evolutions, there's such an opportunity to ride that wave. And when we think a particular platform is dead in the water, it comes back again. Yeah, the social media trends and evolutions. And another Buffalo surprising thing for me is the interesting conspiracy theories that have come out of unnamed Clinic Mastery team members.

Ben Lynch: Oh, it is great. It is great for a team retreat.

Jack O'Brien: I'll just leave it there.

Ben Lynch: Sure. All right. So we have, if we could, if you could rewind 12 months, What would you start earlier and what would you stop sooner? I had start earlier the in-person leadership meetups. Similar to your reflection before, J.O.B., I'm very happy on Zoom. I could spend all day on Zoom. I'm totally fine. I feel productive. That doesn't work for everyone. And getting in the same room and aligning there has been fantastic. We would do it digitally, for quite a while. Now I see there are some added benefits to being in person, but that would have started sooner. The stop sooner, I just put broadly in that category of the ruinous empathy, the standards that you spoke to of, just even if they're small, to your point, Hannah, of just maybe letting it fly. It's okay. Bad day or bad week. I don't want to make a mountain out of a molehill. And I feel in the last year I've gotten a lot better at anchoring back to those things, the standards, and for myself as well to say, you know, you are upholding those standards as well because that is your culture. What are you willing to accept? What's kind of the minimum bar that you would accept of behaviour? So, and J.I.B., you spoke to a couple of those changes that we've made. I would just uphold the standards more regularly, more often, knowing that I'm probably still going to commit those acts of being too empathetic at times and then maybe being too hard at other times and not empathetic enough. There's never quite the right balance, but I think net-net to uphold the standards more clearly, more often. What about you, Hannah? Start earlier and stop sooner.

Hannah Dunn: I would start earlier being really clear on those position descriptions and the channels of communication and who's responsible for what. And I would also have started sooner with the, um, with the people, the coordinators or the, um, people who hold projects, having that reportability, being able, we've spoken before around them feeding back to us what they're working on. So I think ultimately what I'm saying is that I would have streamlined our communication channels and increased accountability. sooner.

Ben Lynch: Yes.

Hannah Dunn: And what I would stop sooner is putting off conversations, which, you know, people listening that work with me or know me would say, you're not one to shy away from that. But I am definitely at times when, you know, when there's that emotion that you just spoke to Ben, when, you know, you're sort of friends or, you know, you feel like you've got to perception of how the conversation might go, I would have, yeah, gotten in there sooner.

Ben Lynch: And everyone has different degrees of it, you know, knowing you, yeah, I'm like, you do address it. There's always a degree of hesitation, whether it's a day or a week or a month, whatever it might be, just being able to do it sooner. I think

Hannah Dunn: Yeah, I think sooner, but also putting time and space between it because sometimes I was very quick to go in and yeah, absolutely. So I think that has been a big learning and something I would stop sooner.

Ben Lynch: I took a deep breath on a phone call to Jack today. I think I paused for 30 seconds, which is longer than my usual 20 minute pause. And I said, Jack, I'm going to say it. Which will be for another time, but that was, yes, me acting that way too.

Hannah Dunn: Apparently you must lean back on your chair too. Apparently that helps you. Lean back? Yeah, leaning back helps put some space between it and slow you down.

Ben Lynch: JB, what about you? Rewind 12 months. What would you have started earlier and what would you have stopped sooner?

Jack O'Brien: Well, what would I start sooner? I would hire a content person to help us dominate our social media. And so if you are watching this and you're familiar with Kintso, Frank Green, and that ilk, we are on the lookout and we should have done this 12 months ago, but now is the time. And so if you're it, come and have a conversation, slide into the DM, send me an email, whatever that looks like, but it is time. In fact, it is overdue. And so that's the game.

Ben Lynch: Hold up. This is great, J-O-B, to reveal, because this is going to help, right? This is a meta point. You and I had a conversation. We said, what if we were just more outward and shared our recruitment process? really just talk through, because we're like, we want to find someone that's like this person, and we documented it, and we had some conversations. We're going to see if it helps. So, I'm glad you started it. There you go.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, it's on. What would I stop? And this is tricky. I'm going to play a bit of a Peter Flynn here because I love a new software subscription. Like, give me a new shiny object. But what should we have stopped doing? We should have stopped the software bloat at Clinic Mastery a long time ago. We sold a business case of enterprise-level software. Enterprise. Oh, that word. If someone tells you they're offering you enterprise software, run.

Hannah Dunn: We should have cancelled that subscription.

Jack O'Brien: I'm not going to name softwares here publicly lest we get sued for defamation, but someone asked me the other day, what do you think of XYZ software? We're about to pull the trigger. Capital letters, stop. So, yes, beware. There are good softwares that are worth investing in. Software bloat is a line item on the P&L to beware of.

Ben Lynch: I feel like it could also be the other side of the coin that is innovating on the frontier, trying to be across new things and what's the best. Also, so that we can help members, right? The other side is you start that subscription and maybe it doesn't add or you build it out and it adds bloat or you forget about it. So yeah, I can understand it, but yeah, there was certainly one that we're very happy to wrap up.

Jack O'Brien: to your point. We'll send him a Christmas card and thank him for that.

Hannah Dunn: I don't know if he'd want to be Peter Flynn right now though.

Jack O'Brien: Yeah, no. I'm looking forward to having him back on the podcast with his slings and crutches and bandages.

Ben Lynch: Skiing.

Jack O'Brien: I'd like to catch up with him with my gym physique over the next couple of months maybe.

Ben Lynch: All right, we've only got a few more moments here. What's the one lesson, this is the final question, we've done well to keep to time here, what's the one lesson from this year that you're carrying straight into the new year? I'll kick us off. Strategy is the ultimate anchor for every conversation and decision, period. Getting super clear and articulate on our strategy. We've had versions over time, but through the guidance of a very good advisor for us personally and professionally here at CM, we got more articulate than ever. And I think that has enabled the filter to be so clear for every conversation and decision that's followed. to the point where you just anchor back and everyone knows exactly what we're referring to. Albeit, there's still some permeations or some rollout that needs to be done to the broader team of the CM strategy in the last several months. It's felt clear as day for a bunch of decisions. So I'm keeping that into the new year, which looks like even more writing for me. I spent the morning writing, preparing for this pod, but also doing some reflections to do more of that critical thinking. I think when it's written, it's easier to challenge, question, play contrarian to myself and get external perspectives to stress test some of the decisions that we're making. What about you? What's the one lesson from this year that you're carrying straight into next year?

Hannah Dunn: Very similar to you, Ben, it's about keeping those blinkers on and being true to myself and not being drawn into what everyone else is doing, including not being constrained by what NDIS is doing. you know, still being within their guidelines, but running our own race and having our clinic as we want our clinic to be, instead of being dictated by external factors and changing things as we go.

Ben Lynch: That is on point. And I think every NDIS clinic should take a leaf out of that. That is Brilliant positioning. Not that there's any guarantees, but I think you've got the right filter to think through it and rally the troops. J-O-B, as we look to wrap, the one lesson from this year that you're carrying straight into the next year.

Jack O'Brien: I just can't get past Stephen Covey's voice in my head. Begin with the end in mind. The clearer you are on the end, the easier it is at the beginning. Last post first. Keep the big picture in mind.

Ben Lynch: Oh, keep the analogies coming. You've got a strong game, metaphors and analogies, similes. That is you, JB. Sometimes you're speaking riddles and it's hard for me to understand. I'm a slow learner, but if you write these things down, maybe I can learn quicker. Anyway, Hannah, Jack, what an incredible year we've had, especially, we've all mentioned it, the change to the pod. We've got some awesome plans for the new year with the pod as well. Uh, but yeah, thank you to both of you. I know I sat in between and offline, but, uh, publicly, thank you so much for your contributions to the episodes and we wish everyone a safe Merry Christmas and Happy New Year celebration. We'll see you next year. Bye.